Oops- in my bit about MACBETH I transposed "Duncan" and "Malcolm."
Obviously, Duncan is the father, the king who Macbeth murdered, and Malcolm
his son. Flip those names and the bit I wrote about them makes more sense!
Brian
On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 10:23 AM, Brian Thornton
<bthorntonwriter@gmail.com>wrote:
> Perhaps it comes down a sense of perspective, to literal point-of-view, if
> you will.
>
> For example:
>
> HAMLET- the titular character is literally blameless (at least until he
> kills Polonius, and even then his move is potentially justifiable) in a
> setting where there's "something rotten" in Denmark: it's obvious from the
> first scene that the king is fiddling while things circle the drain at
> Elsinore. More to the point, he's as much a victim of his father's murder
> as his father. And because he "can be fretted, but not played" ("though you
> can fret me, you cannot play me," he suspects everyone, even his own mother-
> he ruminates on how the ghost of his murdered father might be an imp from
> Hell looking to lead him astray- that's an intelligent response to an
> impossible situation, and also the sign of a brilliant, suspicious mind,
> just one step short of paranoid) he's no one's pawn in a court full of
> people willing, aching to be used for the purposes of others (Rosencrantz
> and Guildenstern, Laertes, Osric, Polonius, and to a lesser extent, even
> Ophelia). Hamlet's death at the end is tragedy of literally Shakespearean
> proportions.
>
> If it's Claudius' story, it's noir (and reads a hell of a lot like
> MACBETH). If it's Gertrude's story, it's also noir. Laertes, Polonius, R &
> G, even Ophelia- noir.
>
> KING LEAR- again, the titular character has flaws (he's petty and peevish
> and wants to freeload off his kids), but he's basically blameless in the
> bloodbath that follows on the heels of his decision to retire and split his
> kingdom amongst his daughters and their husbands.
>
> If it's Goneril's story, it's deep, black noir. Doubly so if it's Regan's
> story (the bitch joined her vicious husband in plucking out the eyes of one
> of Lear's faithful retainers right on stage. That's hard core, man). If
> it's Cornelia's story, it's tragedy (as she was the most truly blameless of
> characters in this play, even moreso than her foolish, prideful father). If
> it's Edmund's story, it's really compelling noir (bastard son trading on his
> being born on the wrong side of the blanket, playing people of station off
> against each other until he's brought low by the sword of the legitimate
> half-brother whom he's used, wronged, and gotten disinherited. Go back and
> read his "Thou, Nature, art my goddess" speech in Act I. I'd read the rest
> of that story. Wouldn't you?)
>
> MACBETH- noirnoirnoir!
>
> If it's Malcolm's story it's tragedy. If it's Duncan's it's HAMLET with a
> far less compelling main character and a far happier outcome. Likewise
> Macduff.
>
> OTHELLO- noir. The guy's a basically great person, brought low by a
> crippling jealousy (you know, that whole, "tragic flaw" thing about which
> literary types tend to wax rhapsodic), which opens him up to being played by
> Iago.
>
> If it's Iago's story, it's noir as black and dark as Regan's (and possibly
> as compelling as Edmund's).
>
> Let's face it, Willie the Shake had quite a way with villains.
>
> And don't even get me started on RICHARD III!
>
> There you have it- the perspective is everything, the apple of discord has
> been tossed into the middle of the table.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Brian
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 9:41 AM, Sean Shapiro <ssshapir@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Macbeth is noir because he kills to get to where he thinks he wants to be.
>> R&J
>> is tragedy because love should not be a crime. My two cents ...
>>
>> Sean Shapiro
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: "gsp.schoo@MOT.com <gsp.schoo%40MOT.com>" <
>> gsp.schoo@murderoutthere.com <gsp.schoo%40murderoutthere.com>>
>>
>> To: rara-avis-l@yahoogroups.com <rara-avis-l%40yahoogroups.com>
>> Sent: Thu, August 12, 2010 5:01:47 PM
>> Subject: Re: RARA-AVIS: Re: Noir -- Penzler, Kerry and MRT
>>
>>
>>
>> I take exactly the opposite track, Dave. If a moral line is crossed it's
>> tragedy. There's an implied lesson. But in noir there's no alternative, no
>>
>> opportunity for redemption. Lets take Romeo & Julliette. At the end, the
>> Prince
>> sums up the errors of everyone's ways that led to the fatalities,
>> encouraging
>> better behaviour in the future. Macbeth could have avoided his end had he
>> been
>> less ambitious, Hamlet if he'd been more decisive. Those are tragedies.
>> But if
>> you believe R&J's young love is doomed regardless because love will never
>> transcend tribalism, that's noir.
>>
>> Best,
>> Kerry
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: davezeltserman
>> To: rara-avis-l@yahoogroups.com <rara-avis-l%40yahoogroups.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 9:51 AM
>> Subject: RARA-AVIS: Re: Noir -- Penzler, Kerry and MRT
>>
>> It has to has to be more than just a character being screwed, the
>> character's
>> actions have to contribute to them being screwed. A moral line has to be
>> crossed
>> that there's no turning back from. Otherwise, instead of noir it's
>> tragedy.
>>
>> --Dave
>>
>> --- In rara-avis-l@yahoogroups.com <rara-avis-l%40yahoogroups.com>, Jack
>> Bludis <buildsnburns@...> wrote:
>> >
>> > Not sure about the conflict between what Kerry Schooley says and what
>> Jacques
>> >Debierue (MRT) says.
>> >
>> >
>> > I agree with Kerry that the screwed character of noir may have a moral
>> core but
>> >it gets skewed, most often by money or the femme fatale. And yes, the PI
>> novel
>> >is romantic fantasy.
>> >
>> > MrT says of the moral code, "... such codes are rarely personal but
>> instead are
>> >largely societal." I've never heard that before, but it seems right on
>> target.
>> >Chandler's entire description of the private-eye in his famous essay
>> points
>> >directly to the judeo-christian ethic.
>> >
>> > Yes, just "Screwed" is shorthand for noir, but it does describe the
>> protagonist
>> >of such fiction. The absolute evil protagonist is not noir at all, but
>> something
>> >entirely different.
>> >
>> >
>> > Jack
>> >
>> > http://crimespace.ning.com/profile/JackBludis
>> >
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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